Journals of the Senate
52 Elizabeth II, A.D. 2003, Canada
Journals of the Senate
2nd Session, 37th Parliament
Issue 83
Wednesday, October 8, 2003
1:30 p.m.
The Honourable Lucie Pépin, Speaker pro tempore
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Baker, Beaudoin, Biron, Bryden, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Chaput, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, Day, De Bané, Di Nino, Doody, Downe, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Graham, Gustafson, Harb, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, Kelleher, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, LaPierre, Lapointe, Lavigne, Lawson, LeBreton, Léger, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Massicotte, Meighen, Moore, Morin, Murray, Nolin, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Plamondon, Poulin (Charette), Prud'homme, Ringuette, Robertson, Robichaud, Roche, St. Germain, Sibbeston, Sparrow, Stollery, Stratton, Tkachuk, Trenholme Counsell, Watt, Wiebe
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, *Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Baker, *Banks, Beaudoin, Biron, Bryden, *Buchanan, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Chaput, *Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, Day, De Bané, Di Nino, Doody, Downe, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, *Finnerty, Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Graham, Gustafson, Harb, *Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, Kelleher, *Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, LaPierre, Lapointe, Lavigne, Lawson, LeBreton, Léger, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Massicotte, Meighen, *Merchant, *Milne, Moore, Morin, Murray, Nolin, *Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Plamondon, Poulin (Charette), Prud'homme, Ringuette, Robertson, Robichaud, Roche, *Rompkey, St. Germain, Sibbeston, *Smith, Sparrow, *Spivak, Stollery, Stratton, Tkachuk, Trenholme Counsell, Watt, Wiebe
PRAYERS
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Some Honourable Senators made statements.
DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS
Introduction and First Reading of Government Bills
A Message was brought from the House of Commons with a Bill C-17, An Act to amend certain Acts of Canada, and to enact measures for implementing the Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention, in order to enhance public safety, to which they desire the concurrence of the Senate.
The Bill was read the first time.
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fairbairn, P.C., that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading two days hence.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Presentation of Petitions
The Honourable Senator Gauthier presented petitions:
Of Residents of the Provinces of Ontario and Quebec with respect to declaring Ottawa officially bilingual.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Bills
Third reading of Bill C-6, An Act to establish the Canadian Centre for the Independent Resolution of First Nations Specific Claims to provide for the filing, negotiation and resolution of specific claims and to make related amendments to other Acts, as amended.
The Honourable Senator Austin, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C., that the Bill be read the third time.
Debate.
DEFERRED VOTE
At 3:30 p.m., pursuant to the Order adopted October 7, 2003, the Senate proceeded to the taking of the deferred standing vote on the subamendment of the Honourable Senator Kinsella, to the motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator Beaudoin to the motion of the Honourable Senator Day, seconded by the Honourable Senator Harb, for the third reading of Bill C-25, An Act to modernize employment and labour relations in the public service and to amend the Financial Administration Act and the Canadian Centre for Management Development Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts.
The question was put on the subamendment of the Honourable Senator Kinsella, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stratton, that the motion in amendment be amended:
(a) by replacing the words "by replacing lines 8 to 12'' with the following:
"(a) by replacing lines 8 to 11''; and
(b) by replacing the words "(2) An appointment is made on the basis of individual'' with the following:
"(b) by replacing lines 26 to 29, with the following:
"may be identified by the deputy head,
(iii) any current or future needs of the organization that may be identified by the deputy head, and
(iv) achieving equality in the workplace to correct the conditions of disadvantage in employment experienced by persons belonging to a designated group within the meaning of section 3 of the Employment Equity Act, so that the employer's workforce reflects their representation in the Canadian workforce.''.
The subamendment was negatived on the following vote:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Angus, Atkins, Beaudoin, Cochrane, Comeau, Di Nino, Doody, Forrestall, Gustafson, Johnson, Kelleher, Keon, Kinsella, Lawson, LeBreton, Lynch-Staunton, Meighen, Murray, Nolin, Prud'homme, Robertson, St. Germain, Stratton, Tkachuk—24
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Austin, Bacon, Baker, Biron, Bryden, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Chaput, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, Day, De Bané, Downe, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Graham, Harb, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Jaffer, Joyal, Kirby, Kolber, LaPierre, Lapointe, Léger, Losier-Cool, Maheu, Mahovlich, Massicotte, Moore, Morin, Pearson, Phalen, Plamondon, Poulin, Ringuette, Robichaud, Roche, Sibbeston, Sparrow, Stollery, Watt, Wiebe—52
ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Nil
Bills
The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Austin, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C., for the third reading of Bill C-6, An Act to establish the Canadian Centre for the Independent Resolution of First Nations Specific Claims to provide for the filing, negotiation and resolution of specific claims and to make related amendments to other Acts, as amended.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Kinsella for the Honourable Senator Stratton moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was negatived on the following vote:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Atkins, Beaudoin, Biron, Comeau, Cools, Di Nino, Forrestall, Gill, Gustafson, Kelleher, Keon, Kinsella, LeBreton, Lynch-Staunton, Massicotte, Nolin, Prud'homme, Robertson, St. Germain, Tkachuk, Watt—22
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Austin, Bacon, Baker, Bryden, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Chaput, Cook, Corbin, Cordy, Day, De Bané, Downe, Fairbairn, Fraser, Gauthier, Graham, Harb, Hubley, Jaffer, Joyal, Kolber, LaPierre, Léger, Losier-Cool, Maheu, Mahovlich, Moore, Pearson, Ringuette, Robichaud, Sibbeston, Stollery, Wiebe—35
ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Hervieux-Payette, Lavigne, Sparrow—3
The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Austin, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C., for the third reading of Bill C-6, as amended.
After debate,
In amendment, the Honourable Senator Gill moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Watt, that Bill C-6 be not now read the third time, but that it be read a third time this day six months hence.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Adams moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Cools, that further debate on the motion in amendment be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Gill tabled the following:
Letter, dated October 2, 2003, to the Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples, from the National Chief of the Assembly of First Nations (English Text).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-735S.
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Day, seconded by the Honourable Senator Harb, for the third reading of Bill C-25, An Act to modernize employment and labour relations in the public service and to amend the Financial Administration Act and the Canadian Centre for Management Development Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts,
And on the motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator Beaudoin, seconded by the Honourable Senator Comeau, that the Bill be not now read a third time but that it be amended in clause 12, on page 126, by replacing lines 8 to 12 with the following:
"30. (1) Appointments by the Commission to or from within the public service shall be free from political influence and shall be made on the basis of merit by competition or by such other process of personnel selection designed to establish the relative merit of candidates as the Commission considers is in the best interests of the public service.
(1.1) Despite subsection (1), an appointment may be made on the basis of individual merit in the circumstances prescribed by the regulations of the Commission.
(2) An appointment is made on the basis of individual''.
After debate,
In amendment, the Honourable Senator Di Nino moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Nolin, that the motion in amendment be amended
(a) by replacing the words "on page 126, by replacing lines 8 to 12'' with the following:
"(a) on page 126, by replacing lines 8 to 11'';
(b) by adding after the words "free from political influence'' the following:
"and bureaucratic patronage''; and
(c) by replacing the words "of the Commission. (2) An appointment is made on the basis of individual'' with the following:
"of the Commission.''; and
(b) on page 127, by adding after line 9 the following:
"(3) The qualifications referred to in paragraph 30(2)(a) and subparagraph 30(2)(b)(i), and any qualification standards referred to in subsection (1), that are established for an appointment in respect of a particular position or class of positions shall apply to future appointments in respect of that position or class of positions, unless any change established by the deputy head or employer to the qualifications or qualification standards, as the case may be, is approved by the Public Service Commission.''.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Gauthier moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool, that further debate on the subamendment be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Graham, P.C., for the second reading of Bill C-34, An Act to amend the Parliament of Canada Act (Ethics Commissioner and Senate Ethics Officer) and other Acts in consequence.
The Honourable Senator Kinsella for the Honourable Senator Oliver moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton, that debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Reports of Committees
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills
Orders No. 1 to 6 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Kinsella, seconded by the Honourable Senator Murray, P.C., for the second reading of Bill S-6, An Act to assist in the prevention of wrongdoing in the Public Service by establishing a framework for education on ethical practices in the workplace, for dealing with allegations of wrongdoing and for protecting whistleblowers.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robertson, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Commons Public Bills
Orders No. 1 and 2 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Reports of Committees
The Order was called to resume debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Chaput, seconded by the Honourable Senator Trenholme Counsell, for the adoption of the Fifth Report of the Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights (budget—study to hear witnesses with specific human rights concerns) presented in the Senate on September 25, 2003.
SPEAKER PRO TEMPORE'S RULING
Yesterday, as debate was to begin on the motion for the adoption of the Fifth Report of the Standing Committee on Human Rights, Senator Lynch-Staunton raised a point of order. The Leader of the Opposition explained that the terms of the order of reference under which the Human Rights Committee is now operating did not include the authority to travel. The present mandate of the committee, as the Senator stated, authorizes it to hear witnesses with specific Human Rights concerns. As he noted, there is no suggestion that the committee would travel. It is Senator Lynch-Staunton's contention that, and I quote, "It has always been our practice that if a committee believes that it must travel to fulfill its terms of reference, it include that request in its original terms of reference so that the Senate is informed, at the time of the request, exactly how the committee intends to carry out the commitment the Senate is asking it to undertake.'' The Leader of the Opposition then cited two parliamentary authorities to the effect that committees are strictly bound by their orders of reference and are not at liberty to depart from them. Based on this analysis, Senator Lynch-Staunton maintains that the Standing Committee on Human Rights in fulfilling its current mandate is limited to the national capital region "because no authority was requested at the time to pursue its study beyond that geographical area.''
In reply, Senator Maheu reviewed the nature of the committee's mandate and the importance of the requested trip to Geneva and Strasbourg. Such trips, the Senator explained, are an essential part of the committee's work because it allows the membership to better understand Canada's international human rights obligations as well as provide an opportunity for the committee to view the structure of human rights protection and promotion at an international level. In summary, Senator Maheu claimed that the proposed trip, like the one made by the committee to Costa Rica in the context of a previous study, helps to advance the work of the Senate.
Senator Robichaud, the Deputy Leader of the Government, explained that the process being followed by the committee in requesting the trip through a report was in keeping with the practices of the Senate. A committee undertaking a special study seeking to travel must first prepare a budget estimating the cost of the trip. This budget is then reviewed by the Committee of Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration. Once Internal Economy has made its findings, the committee must then submit a report to the Senate. This report, which includes, as an appendix, information on the costs of the trip as approved by Internal Economy, must be adopted by the Senate. Without the Senate's sanction, the committee cannot travel anywhere.
There were other interventions on this point of order. Senator Kinsella, Senator Stratton and Senator Nolin expressed views in support of the general position taken by Senator Lynch-Staunton. I wish to thank all Honourable Senators for their contribution on this matter. This topic has already been the object of comment at various times during this session. As recently as last May, Senator Lynch-Staunton had several exchanges with Senator Kenny about the procedures in place to determine the costs of committee studies.
Whatever the merits or flaws of our procedures in setting committee budgets especially in connection with requests to travel, as Speaker I am bound by the practices and policies that the Senate itself has approved. Since 1986, the Senate has followed certain procedural guidelines with respect to what are termed "special expenses,'' including travel, that might arise in connection with committee studies. These guidelines have been printed as Appendix II of the Rules of the Senate.
In addition to setting out the steps that must be followed to secure approval for travel that Senator Robichaud mentioned, paragraph 2:02 of the guidelines states that "A notice of motion to establish a special committee or to authorize a committee to conduct a special study shall not refer to special expenses but shall set a date by which the committee is to the report to the Senate.'' This passage has been taken to mean that no order of reference mandating a "special study'' by a particular committee ought to contain any blanket authorization to travel.
Yesterday, some Senators referred to an earlier study undertaken by the Human Rights Committee respecting the Inter-American Convention on Human Rights. The Senate adopted that order of reference on November 21, 2002. In keeping with paragraph 2:02 of the guidelines, the order of reference contained no mention of traveling. It simply authorized the committee "to examine and report on Canada's possible adherence to the American Convention on Human Rights.'' The order of reference also established a reporting date of June 27, 2003. At some point during its work, the committee came to the realization that it needed to go to Costa Rica to properly fulfill its mandate even though the original order of reference contained no provision for travel anywhere. In order to obtain permission of the Senate to go to San José, the committee followed the procedure stipulated in the guidelines. It prepared a budget, which was submitted to the Committee of Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration for approval, and then sought the permission of the Senate to travel through a separate report.
The object of the Fifth Report is no different. The steps that have been taken by the Human Rights Committee in seeking authorization to travel to Strasbourg and Geneva are in keeping with the established guidelines. Accordingly, I find that there is no point of order and debate on the Fifth Report can now proceed.
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Pursuant to Rule 13(1), the Speaker pro tempore left the Chair to resume the same at 8:00 p.m.
The sitting resumed.
Reports of Committees
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Chaput, seconded by the Honourable Senator Trenholme Counsell, for the adoption of the Fifth Report of the Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights (budget—study to hear witnesses with specific human rights concerns) presented in the Senate on September 25, 2003.
After debate,
In amendment, the Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Nolin, that the Fifth Report of the Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights be amended by adding after the words "travel outside of Canada.'' the following:
MANDATE FOR TRAVEL
1. The Committee shall during its visit to the United Nations office in Geneva inquire into Canada's compliance with the United Nations International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the International Covenant on Economic Social and Cultural Rights;
2. The Committee shall, during its visit to the Human Rights Court of the Council of Europe in Strasbourg, inquire into areas of application of the European Social Charter as a model in Canada; and
3. The Committee shall report to the Senate no later than November 4, 2003.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion in amendment, it was adopted.
The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Chaput, seconded by the Honourable Senator Trenholme Counsell, for the adoption of the Fifth Report, as amended, of the Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights (budget—study to hear witnesses with specific human rights concerns) presented in the Senate on September 25, 2003.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Order No. 2 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Consideration of the Sixth Report of the Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights (budget—study on the division of on-reserve matrimonial real property) presented in the Senate on October 7, 2003.
The Honourable Senator Maheu moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Bacon, that the Report be adopted.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
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Ordered, That Motion No. 149 standing in the name of the Honourable Senator Day be brought forward.
MOTIONS
The Honourable Senator Day moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Cordy:
That Bill S-20, An Act to amend the Copyright Act, which was referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce, be withdrawn from the said Committee and referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
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Ordered, That all remaining Orders be postponed until the next sitting.
ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C.:
That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
(Accordingly, at 8:37 p.m. the Senate was continued until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow.)
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Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 85(4)
Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples
The names of the Honourable Senators Forrestall and Johnson substituted for those of the Honourable Senators Stratton and Andreychuk (October 7).